We talked with Luise Amtsberg, Member of the German Bundestag, about Germany’s response to the humanitarian crisis unfolding in the Middle East, the refugee influx at Europe’s southern borders, and what needs to be done to increase European solidarity in response to these challenges.
hbs: Germany has so far promised to take in 20,000 refugees from Syria. In comparison to other European countries, this is a relatively high quota. In the wake of over 3 million Syrian refugees overall, however, 20,000 is a rather negligible contribution. Is the current quota sufficient in your opinion?
Luise Amtsberg: I think you have to see the whole picture. It is true that Germany takes in the highest absolute number of refugees within Europe, but in comparison to our overall population it is actually not that high. So this is the first thing I would like to state. In fact, the European countries could do more and have to do more and it is necessary for Germany to push during these pledging conferences to coordinate a European Syrian refugee policy. I think that Germany could take in more refugees from Syria, of course, also from northern Iraq. On the other hand we have to provide a functional asylum system in Germany. This is a problem we are facing right now.
hbs: A few weeks ago, the German government stated that it is going to evaluate the possibility of admitting more refugees from Iraq. Which additional measures are needed to secure decent living conditions for additional refugees?
Luise Amtsberg: First of all, we need to focus on decent accommodation, on providing flats and apartments for refugees. Right now our facilities are over-crowded and in some regions they are unable to take in any more people seeking asylum, which is their constitutional right. This is a major problem. So first of all, we need more facilities.This is a bit of a shame because we knew that the number of refugees was increasing since 2011 when the Syrian war started. The German government on a federal level was very inactive; they acted as if the problem would simply go away. In the current situation, it is necessary for us- also the Green party- not to insist on our claims for minimum standards for hosting refugees. Right now we need bigger accommodations even if in principle it is necessary and better to provide them with decentralized apartments and smaller units where families can live together. That should be the ultimate goal, but I think in the current situation this is quite idealistic. Right now, having so many people coming from Syria, we need to help them immediately. Of course we still need to talk about Human Rights standards, what is acceptable and what is really inacceptable. Lastly, there are a lot of traumatized people so we need counseling and trauma treatment as well as tools to avoid conflicts within refugee facilities.
hbs: How would you describe the public mood in Germany with regard to taking in additional refugees?
Luise Amtsberg: I think there generally is a high level of solidarity with Syrian refugees, which I really appreciate and I am very glad about. But of course if you can’t explain to people how to manage the flow of refugees coming to Germany, this mood will change some day. We experienced this in the 1990s when politicians couldn’t explain how to deal with the refugee influx from the Balkans and we had racist attacks on refugee facilities in response. So the situation is very delicate right now. And even if there is a high level of solidarity by most people for Syrians, there is for example less solidarity with people from the Western Balkans at the moment. Some people say they don’t even have the right to seek political asylum. There is still a lot of racism in our communities. I really hope that people will understand what it means to guarantee the right for asylum set in stone in our constitution. But of course the politicians have to make sure that there is a plan and that people can understand that we take care of the problems related to accepting a high number of refugees and asylum-seekers.
hbs: What is Germany doing in order to assist Syria’s and Iraq’s neighboring countries to cope with refugee influx from across the border? What are the most pressing needs and where do you see room for more engagement?
Luise Amtsberg: That’s a very complicated question. I think we aren’t doing enough. Seeing especially Lebanon having a population growth by one quarter-- this is such a special situation and we need to take care that Lebanon and other countries aren’t collapsing. This worst-case scenario would cause another refugee flow. First of all, we have to make sure that we ourselves take in more refugees, that we increase the embassy staff and fasten the visa procedure. And of course we also have to give more funding for the support of refugees in these countries. But of course we also have to support Lebanon, for example, to provide for basic human rights, although this is a tricky question. And with Turkey, which has also taken in a lot of refugees, we have to make sure that it really keeps its borders open for actual refugees while shutting it down for violent extremists.
hbs: Let us move from Europe’s eastern neighborhood to Europe itself, and the situation at its southern border. You and your party advocate for the creation of a common European framework with high and congruent standards to accommodate and protect refugees. What needs to change in European refugee policy in order to reach that goal?
Luise Amtsberg: Well, they say we already have a common asylum system. What we actually have is regulations, but there are no common standards and this is what a common European asylum system originally means. Reaching that goal is tricky because in order to do that we need to address social policy in the European member states. If you have very low standards in social policy in Italy, for example, it will be difficult to provide for refugees at the same standard as, for example, Germany. This will have to be the main focus over the next years. We also need legal ways to get to the European Union in order to avoid people coming to Europe illegally while risking their lives to do so.
hbs: Every year a large number of refugees strands at the shores of southern Europe, especially along the coast of Italy and Greece. In early September, Federal Minister of the Interior Thomas de Maizière publically stated that the EU should implement a new mechanism to distribute refugees fairly between EU countries. Do you agree this is a necessary and viable step to take?
Luise Amtsberg: Yes, I totally agree and I’m happy that we are finally having this discussion in Germany, though I think people push this for different goals. Our Minister for Interior does not think that Italy is shouldering too much responsibility. In fact, he thinks that if we create a new, fairer system that Germany would get fewer refugees. I think that’s wrong. This is a very difficult situation for Italy. They have to take care of people arriving and they have to make facilities ready for thousands of refugees who come in boats. When a boat arrives at night with 500 people at the shores of a small town, it has to take care of them immediately. This is different in Germany where we can prepare better so I think it’s not fair to point the finger on Italy.But de Maizière is right when he says that the way it works now is not a good solution. So we have to change the status quo and I’m glad to talk with him about that but I’m not sure that we will have the same opinion on the solution. What we need is a system that takes into account population size and the strength of the economy of a country.
hbs: The border control system EUROSUR, which came into effect in 2014, is supposed to lower the possibilities of refugees drowning in the sea. How do you evaluate the impact of that system so far?
Luise Amtsberg: I think the whole tool is totally wrong. Having this surveillance system and making the corridor for people to come as small as possible means that smugglers and criminals have the possibility to make really good business with refugees. The more you shut down or the more you tighten the controls, the more lucrative business is for smugglers. It’s the opposite of what they are intending to do with that surveillance system and it’s also very dangerous. Once you have strict border control people look for even more risky ways to come to Europe. What we need instead is a provision of legal ways to the European Union. If you are Syrian coming via Libya to Europe there must be a way to go to a German embassy and say: “I’m Syrian and I want to apply for asylum, please issue me a visa so I can cross the Mediterranean by a regular boat”. This is what needs to be done right now.
hbs: In 2011, the European Court of Justice forbade the deportation of refugees to Greece because of the calamitous conditions they had to live in. Many critics say that the situation in Italian refugee camps is not coherent with Human Rights standards either. What needs to be done to ensure that the accommodation of refugees in southern Europe is in accordance with Human Rights standards?
Luise Amtsberg: I think the solution mainly lies in integration. Of course we also need to make sure that the facilities and conditions people live in are decent, but it’s also about integration. Ultimately, this is the only way to help refugees and asylum-seekers to become self-sufficient. When people are allowed to work and to learn the language, they don’t have to stay in these facilities. They can rent their own apartments, they can bring their children to school, and they can educate themselves. There are different standards within the European Union, that’s a matter of fact. Germany is not that bad in comparison but pointing fingers is frankly not very helpful. I mean, Italy has problems, Germany also has problems. In the past few days we’ve learned again that refugees were abused in privately- run facilities. This also constitutes a human rights violation. So this approach of blaming Italy and Greece is not helpful. We have to make sure that there are minimum standards and that really everybody takes care that these standards are the reality for refugees.